MS SQL over SMB2

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MS SQL over SMB2

Jiří Činčura
http://blogs.technet.com/b/josebda/archive/2011/02/24/sql-over-smb2-one-of-the-top-10-hidden-gems-in-sql-server-2008-r2.aspx

Maybe we can investigate how are they doing it and how reliable it is and what are the gotchas.

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Dimitry Sibiryakov-3
24.09.2014 10:44, Jiří Činčura wrote:
> Maybe we can investigate how are they doing it and how reliable it is and what are the gotchas.

   For the beginning it would be enough "what it is good for". The post is describing
"how" but say no word about "why".

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Mariuz
The why is explained by users , There are a lot of nas/raid devices that can be used for db storage also for clustering (cold standby)

Jiri Could you do some tests on a smb 3 share with Firebird ?


On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Dimitry Sibiryakov <[hidden email]> wrote:
24.09.2014 10:44, Jiří Činčura wrote:
> Maybe we can investigate how are they doing it and how reliable it is and what are the gotchas.

   For the beginning it would be enough "what it is good for". The post is describing
"how" but say no word about "why".

--
   WBR, SD.

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Dimitry Sibiryakov-3
24.09.2014 14:58, marius adrian popa wrote:
> The why is explained by users , There are a lot of nas/raid devices that can be used for
> db storage also for clustering (cold standby)

   I bet that it is much easier to find NAS which support iSCSI or NFS. Do you know a
popular SMB-only NAS device?

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Leyne, Sean
In reply to this post by Mariuz
`

> The why is explained by users , There are a lot of nas/raid devices that can be
> used for db storage also for clustering (cold standby)
>
> Jiri Could you do some tests on a smb 3 share with Firebird ?
>
> http://tracker.firebirdsql.org/browse/CORE-3915
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Dimitry Sibiryakov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> 24.09.2014 10:44, Jiří Činčura wrote:
> > Maybe we can investigate how are they doing it and how reliable it is and
> what are the gotchas.
>
>    For the beginning it would be enough "what it is good for". The post is
> describing "how" but say no word about "why".


There are several features that SMB v3 has that makes it very attractive.  The key performance feature is native support for RDMA links -- this provides ultra-low latency connections, which therefore provides **much** faster connection speeds (near equivalent to IB/Infiniband).

The key feature is support for applications is cluster failover -- SMB 3 allows shares to be defined in a failover cluster, such that if the host which is servicing SMB3 requests dies, another member of the failover cluster will seamless take over the requests.

In order to support this feature application require some coding changes -- I had already created tracker cases for the changes (providing citations from MS sources).

I do not see SMB 2 as an appropriate for use for database functions.


Sean

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Beta release

Tom Coleman

We're almost in October and the FB3 beta release date still shows as August 31.

SMB 3, memory management, etc., etc - all very interesting discussions but how are they leading to the highly-anticipated and much needed beta release?

Let's focus, gentlemen.  Please.

P.S.

Java's outstanding success is due in part to the ease with which developers can leverage libraries across platforms, freeing them from having to reinvent (often poorly) supporting functions and allowing them to concentrate on the core application.  If a performance-oriented outfit like Percona decides on  libjemalloc for memory management it seems to me that that decision should be given some serious consideration.

P.P.S.

Apologies for sounding like a broken record.


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Re: Beta release

Dmitry Yemanov-3
24.09.2014 19:33, Tom Coleman wrote:
>
> We're almost in October and the FB3 beta release date still shows as
> August 31.
>
> SMB 3, memory management, etc., etc - all very interesting discussions
> but how are they leading to the highly-anticipated and much needed beta
> release?

Beta release is expected the next week.


Dmitry


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Re: Beta release

Adriano dos Santos Fernandes-3
In reply to this post by Tom Coleman
On 24/09/2014 12:33, Tom Coleman wrote:
>
>
> Apologies for sounding like a broken record.
>
>
Apologies not accepted from me!

You still not said in how manner (money, tests, *useful* comments) you
are contributing to this release.


Adriano


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Re: Beta release

Mark Rotteveel-2
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 12:43:52 -0300, Adriano dos Santos Fernandes
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24/09/2014 12:33, Tom Coleman wrote:
>>
>>
>> Apologies for sounding like a broken record.
>>
>>
> Apologies not accepted from me!
>
> You still not said in how manner (money, tests, *useful* comments) you
> are contributing to this release.

Could we please not try to alienate our users by these kinds of comments!

Mark

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Re: Beta release

Tom Coleman
In reply to this post by Dmitry Yemanov-3


Wonderful!

Would it be a good idea to update the tracker with this information and create some excitement?


On Sep 24, 2014, at 11:39 AM, Dmitry Yemanov wrote:

> 24.09.2014 19:33, Tom Coleman wrote:
>>
>> We're almost in October and the FB3 beta release date still shows as
>> August 31.
>>
>> SMB 3, memory management, etc., etc - all very interesting discussions
>> but how are they leading to the highly-anticipated and much needed beta
>> release?
>
> Beta release is expected the next week.
>
>
> Dmitry
>


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Re: Beta release

Dmitry Yemanov-3
In reply to this post by Dmitry Yemanov-3
24.09.2014 19:39, Dmitry Yemanov wrote:
>
> Beta release is expected the next week.

Correction: Beta *code* is expected to be ready (i.e. tagged) the next
week. The release itself will appear slightly later, after composing the
docs and passing QA.


Dmitry


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Re: Beta release

Leyne, Sean
In reply to this post by Tom Coleman
Tom,

> We're almost in October and the FB3 beta release date still shows as August
> 31.
>
> SMB 3, memory management, etc., etc - all very interesting discussions but
> how are they leading to the highly-anticipated and much needed beta
> release?

While I appreciate your frustration at the lateness of the beta release, and it is appropriate to remind/prompt the project team on this subject, the discussion of memory management is not an "academic" one.

The release needs to have good performance, the issues which Nikolay identified must be addressed in order for final release.

Given this, IMO holding off beta until all manior features/known issues are addressed makes a lot of sense -- why release a beta if the testing that will occur would need to be re-done if a major change like memory management is changed?

Project developers and volunteers time is a limited resource and needs to be considered.

Finally, to compare the Firebird project against MySQL is not fair -- MySQL/Percona is able to leverage the significant licensing revenue which their ownership of the GPL code provides (no commercial product will ship without a non-GPL license for MySQL -- which has a retail price of $2000 / server / year).  {Remember GPL is 'infectious' so any software which interfaces with it, must itself be released as GPL}  That revenue stream provides a lot of flexibility for hiring devel related resources.


Sean


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Re: Beta release

Jim Starkey-4
On 9/24/2014 4:14 PM, Leyne, Sean wrote:
> Finally, to compare the Firebird project against MySQL is not fair --
> MySQL/Percona is able to leverage the significant licensing revenue
> which their ownership of the GPL code provides (no commercial product
> will ship without a non-GPL license for MySQL -- which has a retail
> price of $2000 / server / year). {Remember GPL is 'infectious' so any
> software which interfaces with it, must itself be released as GPL}
> That revenue stream provides a lot of flexibility for hiring devel
> related resources.

Actually not.  Percona and Sky are GPL forks -- neither owns the code
and neither can issue commercial licenses.

I haven't looked at the license pricing for some time, but a bundled
commercial license used to be next to free, and not a major source of
revenue.  MySQL made its money from the "enterprise" version (identical
to the "community" version plus some management software).  The hook was
that you couldn't buy support from MySQL without an enterprise license.  
MySQL support was absolutely excellent; people were will to pay big
bucks to get it.  And helping things was the fact that MySQL replication
was so delicate that nobody in their right mind would run it without
access to expert hand holding when things started to blow up.  Percona
was an alternate (and cheaper) source of expertise before the Oracle
acquisition.  Sky/MariaDB is a post-Oracle fork with a lot of former
MySQL managers and developers (MySQL generally had excellent
management.  Developers, less so.).

Firebird could learn a great deal by studying MySQL/Percona/Sky/MariaDB
economics.  There is a great deal of money to be had by a) treating
users as valued assets and b) providing top notch support.  Note: MySQL
was never a success because of product excellence.  They won because
their customers loved them.  And because Marten ran the company and
successfully sidelined Monty, but that's a different story.

Many MySQL customers would be better off with Firebird, but they love
MySQL and would almost never consider an alternative.


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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Jiří Činčura
In reply to this post by Leyne, Sean
> I do not see SMB 2 as an appropriate for use for database functions.

I was confused by SMB2/2.1 as well. I thought it might be good to investigate what they are doing (preventing problems, how the share is opened, ...).

--
Mgr. Jiří Činčura
Independent IT Specialist


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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Jiří Činčura
In reply to this post by Mariuz
> Jiri Could you do some tests on a smb 3 share with Firebird ?

I don't have a device with SMB3 support or Windows 2012 machine. I can install it to VM, but that's not going to show valuable data, I think.


--
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Independent IT Specialist

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Leyne, Sean
In reply to this post by Jiří Činčura


> > I do not see SMB 2 as an appropriate for use for database functions.
>
> I was confused by SMB2/2.1 as well. I thought it might be good to investigate
> what they are doing (preventing problems, how the share is opened, ...).

I am not aware of SQL Server running on SMB anything other than SMB v3.  It would be far too dangerous.

The most of the changes they made are outlined in the cases which I created in the tracker -- these came from the notes of a TechEd 2013 presentation on application changes for SMB v3.

I will review the tracker cases and if I didn't include the appropriate link to the presentation, I will add.


Sean
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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Leyne, Sean
In reply to this post by Jiří Činčura


> > Jiri Could you do some tests on a smb 3 share with Firebird ?
>
> I don't have a device with SMB3 support or Windows 2012 machine. I can
> install it to VM, but that's not going to show valuable data, I think.

To truly test SMB 3 you would need to create a MS cluster, which will require a fair bit of setup.


Sean

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Dimitry Sibiryakov-3
In reply to this post by Leyne, Sean
25.09.2014 18:25, Leyne, Sean wrote:
> I am not aware of SQL Server running on SMB anything other than SMB v3.  It would be far too dangerous.

   If a server supports SMB3, it means that it has Windows inside, because Samba doesn't
support SMB3 yet. So, I wonder what can preventing anyone from installing MS SQL or
Firebird directly to the server instead of using it as a dumb storage?

--
   WBR, SD.

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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Leyne, Sean


> 25.09.2014 18:25, Leyne, Sean wrote:
> > I am not aware of SQL Server running on SMB anything other than SMB v3.
> It would be far too dangerous.
>
>    If a server supports SMB3, it means that it has Windows inside, because
> Samba doesn't support SMB3 yet. So, I wonder what can preventing anyone
> from installing MS SQL or Firebird directly to the server instead of using it as a
> dumb storage?

Because it is about functional abstraction/virtualization -- separate storage from consumers.

Installing on physical server means that you have a single point of failure.

Having a SQL/FB running in VM on a HA VM cluster connected to HA disk storage cluster provides a high level of resiliency, with multiple failures necessary in order for functionality to be lost.

Windows 2012 and SMB v3 were designed with the goal of enabling high performance and resiliency using common computing components (no expensive specialized HA Storage solutions).  

Here are some links:
   - SMB v3 Q&A from SNIA site http://sniaesfblog.org/?p=274
   - slides of an SNIA presentation on SMB v3 changes, features and benefits.  http://snia.org/sites/default/files/SNIA_SMB3_final.pdf


Sean


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Re: MS SQL over SMB2

Dimitry Sibiryakov-3
25.09.2014 21:27, Leyne, Sean wrote:
> Having a SQL/FB running in VM on a HA VM cluster connected to HA disk storage cluster provides a high level of resiliency, with multiple failures necessary in order for functionality to be lost.

   I wonder how they manage synchronization between nodes in storage cluster... AFAIU from
your links it is either asynchronous with high performance or synchronous with performance
loss. Async mode is no go for DBMS.

--
   WBR, SD.

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